🎙️ Transcript: The GTM Pack Show with Jorge Soto

The GTM Pack Show with Jorge Soto • AssetMule
"Key Learnings for Sales Leaders Moving into a VP of Sales Role"
Jorge Soto, Ralph Barsi
June 17, 2024

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Jorge Soto (00:04):
Ralph Barsi, my friend. You are a legend in sales tech, specifically just around sales, leadership, sales development.

I know you're a sales leader now, that kind of expands beyond sales development, and I know we're going to dig into that, but I just wanted to say how happy I am to have you on the show.

We were chatting in the green room about how long we've known each other, and it looks like about 11 years or so.

We met at that Rainmaker, the original conference put on by Salesloft in Atlanta, and I still remember that. I think...were you speaking at that event?

Ralph Barsi (00:43):
I was. Did I have any hair back then, Jorge, or no?

Jorge (00:47):
You know, I don't think so.

Ralph (00:50):
Bummer. Anyway, I do remember that, it was a while back.

Jorge (00:54):
Well, for the folks out there, you definitely have to follow Ralph on LinkedIn, Twitter. I mean the insights really also expand outside of just revenue and business.

It's life insights.

I love following you, particularly on Twitter, and some of those things. I know that we also have bonded over spirituality and music.

You're a drummer. I have my guitars around here. You can't see 'em in this shot, but life is much more than just business, isn't it?

Ralph (01:27):
Yeah, absolutely. It's all connected too.

Jorge (01:31):
For sure. Right. Well, speaking of business, I know folks listening on this podcast are generally interested in GTM or go-to-market topics.

So, why don't we dive into a couple of the questions I wanted to ask you.

Now, you've transitioned from being the...and I don't want to limit the impact that you've made on sales development...but I will say that you transitioned from the thought leader and one of the most influential people I know, certainly in our space - within sales development - to now a VP of Sales overall.

Any sort of key learnings that you maybe didn't anticipate that now have really surfaced for you?

Ralph (02:18):
Yeah, thanks Jorge. I appreciate the kind introduction and the feeling's mutual, my friend. I hope everybody listening and watching follows you, too.

Yeah, I did recently make a transition, from over a decade of sales development leadership to leading a sales team of sales directors who oversee individual contributors; and obviously we are tied to revenue generation versus revenue pipeline generation.

So, that's been a big transition, knowing that you've got what feels like a heavier number over your head, and you definitely want to deliver.

I continue to learn.

It's very humbling having made this transition and as in your career as well as life, I've got to trust and depend on others to help me out.

I certainly want to be a contributor of value sooner than later, more than just being a consumer of value and relying on everybody.

But yeah, there's been a ton of different takeaways.

Everything from presenting at board meetings every quarter, to constant context switching with the amount of messaging channels that we hear from and send through on a minute by minute basis throughout the day, and making sure that you can manage the switching of mental gears and emotions when you're operating a business, especially a sales team.

So definitely a topic we can dive deeply into, but it's been quite a transition. I'm very grateful for the transition and I am grateful and humbled to continue to learn and I think grow in the process.

Jorge (04:05):
I wanted to double click on one of the pieces that you alluded to, which was the board meetings, right?

And I know you've been a pretty high level sales development leader in the past, and if you think about the way that now as a head of sales, you have to prepare and set up for those board meetings.

Well first of all, let me take a step back and ask, have you ever been in the board meetings being a global leader of sales development? Do those individuals tend to have a seat?

Ralph (04:43):
No, they don't. They might have a seat, however in smaller growth stage companies and it makes perfect sense.

I know that in some respects, or in some companies, rather, there are global sales development leaders that report directly to the CEO and I'm a proponent of that.

I think it's important. However, for the most part, that role typically doesn't sit in a board meeting. So this is my first foray into exposure to the board and, wow, what a learning experience it's been.

Jorge (05:19):
I've asked this question a couple times.

In fact, I was just with an executive vice president of marketing at a sales tech company that you and I know quite well, and I was asking her what she does to prepare for those board meetings, and she gave a couple kind of key pieces and I wanted to ask you - she was speaking from a marketing perspective, you from a head of sales perspective - are there any ways that you sort of maybe filter the information so it's enough for the board to be able to understand, provide the feedback that they're there to do, but not too much so they don't start to go down rabbit holes that maybe are not that useful or may unpack things that are just maybe not productive?

Ralph (06:10):
Absolutely. It's a craft no doubt, and in order to distill the information that matters most to the board and to the executive leadership team, it takes a lot of iterations, a lot of practice, and I leverage what's been done already.

So, I'm a student of a lot of earnings calls and earnings transcripts from quarterly earnings that are shared from public companies, just learning about what the high level information is that needs to be conveyed to get a point across and give the board a sense of the health of the business and your business within the business.

And, if you keep in mind that you are responsible for the daily operation of your business, they are not, therefore, they're not in the weeds with you every day and their business better than they do or at least you should.

They are there to serve, they're there to God, they're there to help and they're there to give very constructive feedback which you should want.

So make sure you're delivering the metrics, and the highlights, and the obstacles clearly and cogently, so that they can employ some really good constructive feedback on things you might not be considering or might not be looking at, and they can help you fill those gaps.

Note that I mentioned, challenges or obstacles.

Anytime you are raising a challenge or an obstacle that you've run into, or you might be reporting on a loss, you must follow it up with not what you're going to do about it or how you're thinking about it, but what you've already begun executing on.

They do not want a leader who's going to them going, "so what do you all think we should do about this problem?"

They want you to have solutions to the problem, number one; and number two, something already underway in terms of resolving that problem.

Therefore, they're going to have that confidence in you when you're presenting it that way.

So, that's a word to those who've not yet presented to a board, or a leadership team, or even to their direct manager in a one-on-one.

It's always the adage of "you want to have two solutions to every problem before you escalate it." And in order to have those two solutions to every problem, you have to learn about problem-solving as a craft.

You have to study the different models: understand first principles, consider different approaches like answer-first thinking or the Pyramid Principle; and start to come up with ideas for solving these problems because that's how you end up in leadership positions.

It's by solving bigger and bigger problems throughout the course of your career.

Jorge (09:15):
Wow, that really is super helpful. It also, for me, and this may be just my view on the world, but as I hear you articulate these different points, I can't help but think that this requires a certain level of emotional intelligence and maturity.

And to kind of give you a little more context on what I was thinking there was at times, I won't say everyone, but at times I think humans, we display this behavior where we don't want to surface something because we are not confident about having the right answer or we don't want to have a difficult conversation or get that constructive feedback.

I think this starts with our parents. When we break something in the house, I remember I'd say, "oh boy, I don't want to tell my dad because he's going to be upset or whatnot," and I try to avoid it, and what ends up happening, it sort of blows out of proportion.

But interestingly enough, I think that we, at times, in professional organizations or environments, may display a lot of that stuff.

So, just something for the audience to think about is this does take a little level or higher level rather of emotional intelligence and courage and saying, "Hey, this is what I've come up with. I have to surface this. Let me come to the table with solutions, but at the same time be humble enough to be able to receive that constructive feedback because we're all on the same team."

Ralph (10:58):
Oh, no question. So you'll notice that your level of certainty and confidence increases the more you know your business.

So, in the off hours you need to be studying the craft. You need to understand the metrics, and the purpose and objective behind the metrics, that the company's using to measure progress.

What has helped me is, I'm a visual learner, so it really helps when I create a Miro board, for example, where I can zoom in and zoom out.

I'll look at the center, the core of my role, and that is, driving revenue across the line for the business.

And then I start to zoom out into all the different components or facets of making sure that that center part happens.

And as soon as it's brought up in any meeting, I can visualize in my head kind of where we are on that Miro board in that flow chart, and I can zoom in mentally on that specific component of the business and then zoom back out and show how it connects or systemically impacts the other facets or components of the business.

And when you know your business to that degree, and all the nooks and crannies of your business, and can quickly and mentally zoom in and out, seeing the overall picture and then zooming in on the micro, you're able to articulate what a problem might be or how you're solving it or what goals and objectives are and why those are the goals and objectives and what your rationale is behind some of the decisions you've made or are about to make.

And that's going to instill confidence in your audience and in your listener.

And when you know it that well, you can easily detach emotionally from the conversation at-hand, and you're less self-conscious about things.

You also lean-in on what you're really, really good at.

And then some of those little gaps that you know need some help with, you're actually okay with surfacing those because you're so confident in the other areas and it comes off, it's infectious and people pick up on that vibe.

Jorge (13:17):
I was going to ask your advice, and for sales leaders, and I think that this might overlap what you just articulated, advice for sales leaders so that they can optimize their own state of being to be the best leader of that team.

We've heard this multiple times how you have a top AE or individual contributor who's crushing it, and there are some attributes that make them really, really good at being an IC and then they get promoted.

This is the old sort of story, they get promoted and they're not really that great at leading others for a variety of reasons.

And again, some of those attributes that made them great as ICs are maybe counterproductive when it comes to actually inspiring, leading, and making others or helping others reach for the stars or crush their roles.

So from that perspective, any sort of advice you would give these sales leaders around, again, optimizing their state of being and perhaps maybe their approach to leadership that can really help them lead others?

Ralph (14:38):
Oh wow. Big question.

Jorge (14:40):
It is.

Ralph (14:41):
When I first went into management, Jorge, and started to lead others, a dear friend and mentor of mine told me, first of all, "Congratulations, this is an incredible privilege that you now have to influence and impact the careers of other people."

"That's number one. Number two, you have to step into this role knowing that not everybody is like you, so don't expect them to be like you. They all bring their unique strengths and gifts to the table, and it's your job to try to find what those unique gifts and strengths are so you could draw it out of them."

And that kind of informed a philosophy that I've held close to heart ever since, and that is, whenever I've had the opportunity and privilege to lead others, i.e., having direct reports, I have always worked very hard to see myself at the bottom of the org chart, and not the top of the org chart.

I serve up and into my organization and my primary responsibility is to remove obstacles that are on the paths of my direct reports and considering my experience and considering what value I can contribute.

I will do what I can to shed light and remove those obstacles from the paths of the direct reports.

So, with that in mind, some advice I would give new leaders is to take those lessons to heart and think through them, meditate on them, pray about them, et cetera, and then start to study and practice the craft.

And you do that really by drawing from all leadership examples in a variety of industries.

Start reading books, following the influencers, picking up what experts in respective industries are putting down.

So for example, you might want to follow the hospitality industry.

There are two great books that I would recommend: one is by Danny Meyer, who was the founder of Shake Shack, successful restaurateur; he wrote a great book called Setting the Table his protege, a guy named Will Guidara wrote Unreasonable Hospitality.

You might want to follow the US military, for example.

You've got Jocko Willink, a former Navy Seal who wrote Extreme Ownership. You've got another great book called Team of Teams about understanding that decentralizing leadership is super effective for organizations of all shapes, sizes, and colors.

You might want to leap into sports. One of my favorite books from that industry is Wooden on Leadership from the late Coach John Wooden of UCLA Basketball or The Score Takes Care of Itself, which was written by the late 49ers coach Bill Walsh.

You might want to jump into finance and read the Berkshire Hathaway shareholder letters that were written by Warren Buffet and Charlie Munger.

They're all available online for free. Morgan Housel's, another great author, he wrote The Psychology of Money.

If you go into business, you've got Execution by Ram Sharan and Larry Bossidy. You've got all the Jack Welch books.

It goes on and on and on.

But the latter you must build to get to the next level in your career should be built on books, in my opinion.

Start cracking open those books and reading and you'll be reminded of little tweaks you can make in your day-to-day operation that are a) going to keep you as a sharp student, but b), help you impart some of this wisdom to your teams.

Jorge (18:38):
Awesome. I am going to create a list of those books. As you can see in the back, I'm a big fan of reading myself.

Quick question: there's been a lot of talk of the overemphasis on process that we've...on our space that we've had, and there's a lot of people that have been bashing systems like Predictable Revenue and things of that nature.

And I understand the points, right? I get it right. It's easy to, in a down market or in a challenging time to start to show the poo on old systems.

I won't necessarily dive into my opinion on those things just because there's so many different aspects of that.

But if you are starting to as a sales leader, think about, all right, you know what, maybe I have over-engineered or made it about the process and maybe that has caused the deterioration of soft skills and overall performance because maybe we've had too much of a reliance on technology and too much of a reliance on workflows, and it was more about making sure that I clicked on these buttons in the CRM versus really connecting with the human on the other side or building those relationships.

What I maybe think of as human elements.

How do you start to find the right balance and do you agree with what's been talked about here over the last, really, I'd say the last two years?

Ralph (20:20):
Quickly, how you maintain balance is to be yourself. Any artificial intelligence or engagement platform should be seen as an extension of you and your personality and the flavor that you bring to things.

In terms of my opinion, I do have an opinion.

So I'm a friend and fan of Aaron Ross's and why Predictable Revenue has been bashed so much is beyond me.

If you've read Predictable Revenue and you understand the approach and methodology that Aaron was suggesting 15 years ago, at this point, you'll remember things like casting a wide net over your marketplace versus spearfishing - really leading with intel and insights that are relevant to the people that you're trying to engage with.

I don't see that going away anytime soon. I also see the negative effects of casting the wide net.

It informed a lot of the sales engagement platforms that came after Predictable Revenue where a lot of mass emails started happening and sloppiness personalization kind of waned, and as a result, Google and Microsoft just a year ago announced that they're going to enforce hardcore spam filters on mass emails.

And I think all that comes from misunderstanding Predictable Revenue and the model that Aaron brought to the surface 15 years ago.

So I have a pretty strong opinion of it.

I also question sometimes, when I read posts on LinkedIn and online, the people who are bashing it, I don't know how successful they've been in their careers, let alone in the jobs that they're in at present.

So they probably shouldn't be talking much yet.

And if they are going to get to a point in their lives and in their careers where they have been wildly successful, then wow, use that megaphone in the right way and don't use it to bash others.

Instead, use it to maybe append or add to what we learned from predictable revenue and add your own flavor to it so that we can continue to learn as an audience and do more good in the world and in our marketplace.

So yeah, I mean, I can go for a minute on this one, but I'll pause, but that's how I feel about it.

Jorge (22:54):
Well, I feel the same way. Aaron is a friend as well, and I sat in workshops with him.

He was kind enough years ago to do workshops for me back in LA when he was there. And the fundamentals were all the solid fundamentals.

It was never about spamming, it was never about broad messaging. It was all about relevancy, personalization, those sort of things.

So for me, I'm also pretty baffled on why there's been so much bashing of the framework and I think it's probably the effects of the technologies that really allowed us to poo poo and spam at scale.

Right. And for some reason there was a misunderstanding, like you said.

So just everything that you said just really resonates with me, Ralph, I know we are at the top of the session here and I really, really appreciate it.

One last question, if you had to sort of give one tip to a sales leader out there who's working with a remote team, we're humans.

I know you and I talk a lot about that and sometimes those environments when you're working from home, you are a salesperson, you are in a performance sort of sport in many ways, and you're isolated and by yourself and you don't have the sales pit and you don't have that ability to deal with the ups and downs of the rejections and so on in a team setting.

Any tips that you would give a sales leader, like one thing that they could do to really help motivate and inspire or uplift their team within this environment?

Ralph (24:48):
Yes. One tip would be to engineer a vision of what's to come from everyone's success.

So if everybody leans in on their individual roles and the responsibilities within those roles, we'll collectively head north and engineer the vision of what north could look like.

An example could be your company gets acquired by an outstanding logo. Your company hits the public market. We land a dream client and it positively impacts the trajectory of the entire company and frankly, of your career and your life as the leader.

The more you can reinforce that vision and that mission, you'll give individuals the benefit of the doubt that they are in touch with their individual purpose and can light their own fires, can be self-starters.

They don't need you to motivate and influence them, but it is up to you to engineer that vision, make it crystal clear so they feel pulled towards the goals versus pushed towards the goals. Big difference.

Jorge (26:03):
Awesome. Ralph, thank you so much for being on the show. I would think that the best channel to reach you, if folks want to follow you, learn from you, maybe getting in contact with you is probably LinkedIn, would you say it is?

Ralph (26:20):
Thanks. It's my first name and last name. It's linkedin.com/ralphbarsi. Please connect with me, send me a little message.

Good, bad, or otherwise, I'd love to hear from you. And then on Twitter or X, it's @rbarsi.

Thanks for having me, Jorge.

Jorge (26:38):
Thank you so much. Have a great day.

Ralph (26:40):
Alright, you too.